Feline Nutrition, What do you feed your furcats? Options

[Muffins]

Hi Everyone:

Over the past 2 weeks, our girl Ms. Lucy has been ill on & off. She has been an insulin dependant diabetic since October, 2004. Blood tests performed on January 27th showed that she is now hyperthyroid. So, as of now, she is on Tapazole, 5mg in the morning.
She HAD been on Humulin insulin up until 2/1/2007, when she was changed over to PZI insulin (for cats). Humulin was no longer being made, so switching her was necessary.

Lucy has suffered from chronic diarrhea ever since we rescued both her & Mr. Yoster in March, 2004. There were a couple of days over the past two weeks where her stool was very, very watery diarrhea. Knock wood, since we have taken up all of their dry food -- her stools have become a bit more firm .

I have been doing A LOT of research over the past couple of weeks on feline nutrition. I must admit -- I am extremely overwhelmed.
One of the things I have found out is that - NO cat should be given dry food.

Because cats are obligate carnivores, they don't need corn, wheat -- grains.
They have very short digestive systems which are not designed to digest carbohydrates, only proteins, which are supposed to pass through their systems very quickly and not hang in their for too long.

On occasion, I look through the feline diabetes site, and recently came across the name of Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins. I am learning quite a bit with regard to diabetes & diet for felines.

I added several links here that you're all welcome to look over.

My question to all of you who read this is:

What foods do you feed your furcats? Do you feel that your furcats body requires dry foods???

A couple of days ago I took up all of the dry food that we had down for our kids. Right now, they both are on wet food ONLY. We are feeding them "Wellness - grain free" and "Wysong meat w/au jus" <<-- we add "Wysong Call of the Wild" food supplement with that.

Thank you all very much for reading this. I am looking forward to learning even more through your feedback.

Peace & Love,
Denise


http://www.catnutrition.org/

http://www.catnutrition.org/resources

http://www.wysong.net/

http://www.all-about-cats.com/index.htm

http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/wellness/c..._can_index.html

[Furkidlets' Mom]

Denise,

I'm glad to hear you're heading in a good direction with the change in diet. We ARE what we eat, and the pet industry has done us no fav*ours in this regard for many, many years. So good for you!

We used to feed as much homemade raw diet food as our kidlets would eat (Dr. Pitcairn's recipes, tho they DO have grain in them....something I knew later on wasn't the most optimum thing, but it WAS balanced for all sorts of nutrients, as his wife was a nutritionist who helped him work it all out). They also got canned, good quality food, and in later years, only about 1T./day of a good brand of dry...just because they were so unhappy w/o ANY. BUT, if I were to do it again, there'd be NO dry food, from the start, so no dietary habits or addictions to break. Dry is especially bad for cats, and terrible for male cats in particular, as it can cause FLUTD, crystals and the like, as well as muck up their kidneys and other organs. For good oral hygeine, a piece (or whole, depending on size of cat or dog) of raw chicken neck, once or twice/wk. is highly suggested by holistic vets. The bones aren't a problem in chicken as long as it's not cooked. Some cats won't go for it though, if they're used to processed food.

In fact, one of Nissa's mainstay canned foods was Wellness (grain-free but with their veggies, etc. added), as was her dry, but it does have grain....and you may have noticed that their canned chicken smells JUST like real, roasted chicken when first opened....like how it SHOULD smell! I would eat this stuff myself. Those foods that people wrinkle up their noses at.....there's a good reason they smell bad. They ARE! Wysong is a good brand, too, but both of our vets (one a homeopath, the other one a homeopath, too but also holistic in other methodologies) both agreed that you have to be more careful with it, as it's been quite well known to cause crystals in cats. Why, no one knew a few years ago, and maybe they've changed something since then, but I'm not sure cuz we had a problem with it, so had to stop using it and I never went back to it.

There IS a problem with feeding nothing BUT protein, as their diets must still be balanced according to what a cat's body needs. Hence the availability now of plenty of raw food diets for cats (and dogs) that either include supplements &/or tell you to add a bit of veggies or other things to round it out. (they provide full instructions) Or some are only the additions and you have to find the (preferably organically-raised) meat and add it.

With Nissa, and her failing kidneys, after a few years I HAD to start decreasing the proportion of protein in her diet ( but NOT to virtually none, as is so often erroneously prescribed!!) so I added either white or brown cream of (whole) rice, from 10-25% by volume into her canned food. Whole, because whole grains/ food are what we SHOULD be eating, and rice is much more easily digestible by cats (or humans).

It's also a very good idea to add extra (purified) water to canned food, too, particularly if you have a cat who doesn't drink much on their own, as many don't. About 1-2 T.'s/ plate of food works well to keep them properly hydrated and the kidneys flushing out waste better. You can play it by ear to see how much water they'll tolerate in their food before it dilutes the taste too much for them.

So a BIG, FAT NO to your question, from me! Cats do NOT "need" dry food and in fact should never have been subjected to it in the first place. Any pet supply store who knows their stuff will tell you, from best, better to worst, in order is: a raw food diet; best quality canned food; dry only if you must, or only as an occasional or very tiny treat.

Best of luck on the continuing research and happy reading!

[AlleysMama]

I have been doing a lot of research about this too, since I want to do the right thing when I get a kitten.

There actually are a few dry foods out there that aren't full of corn and by-products but you really have to do some looking and check the ingredients. An all wet food diet is better for them, is what I have been advised, not only because the ingredients are usually more actual meat than the dry, but also because it gives them more moisture that they need, especially male cats, to help prevent urinary crystals and other problems.

Basically, any food you can get at a grocery store, is awful and full of junk that they don't need and can even cause allergies. Dry food is also more fattening if you have an overweight cat.

Basically, just look at the ingredients on the cat food. The first five ingredients at least, should be meat only. Corn, wheat gluten, by-products, and many other things can all cause problems.

[Moose Mom]

Denise

I agree that cats do not need dry food, in fact it's bad for them. We had to do a lot of research and trial and error with our Moose, he was a sick kitty all his life. While he only made it 10 years I often think we should say he did make it 10 years, I don't think many people could have gotten him out of kittenhood.

Our homeopath recomends fresh food. We do give some canned too. We make sure it's a good, organic, no by-products kind of food. It's eaiser to find now that we can order off the web. The kind our kids like the most is called 'Avoderm Natural' we also use the "Wellness' both smell so good! It's all people quality, why would we feed our kids something we wouldn't eat? I've even tasted it and it tastes good. The homemade raw diet food is wonderful, but I never could get my guys to eat it. I think some of it helps if you start a kitten on it.

We then give good whole meat. Usually organic ground turkey, raw. I've found most of my guys won't eat it raw, I don't know why. So I just warm it up in a skillet and then yum. Our Moose until he was about 2 just could not seem to gain weight. (He vomited a lot his whole life). He's weight was at about 8 pounds which the vet didn't think was enough, he was so thin. With raw turkey we got him to 15 pounds, and very solid. Raw is much more like what they would eat in the wild. They do need veggies, we grow grass inside or get wheat grass for them and the food we feed does have some cooked veggies in it. We let them have a little dry because it's good for their teeth and they love it. We use it as a treat, not as dinner.

Our kids are healthy, with your Ms. Lucy you have to find what works. Trial and error like we did with Moose. It's hard and sometimes what you give them makes it worse. I know you are going to find, or already did, what works best for her.

Love

[Leighann]

I definitely feel that they need a bit of dry food - unless you brush their teeth. I feed my cat Nuku a combination of hills rx t/d and reg hills sensitive stomach dry. I couldn't get her into the brushing the teeth habit, so I opted for a food that did it for me. I highly recommend the hills rx t/d food, as it is extremely low in calories and most cats think it is a treat and it is so good for their teeth. So many diseases and problems can be avoided with good oral hygiene.
I feed my older cat baby (who is extremely picky) canned 1/2 wellness brand with 1/2 hills rx k/d minced. She doesn't have kidney problems, but I would like to avoid that fate. She also eats a little dry Orijen brand, which I still can't believe that she'll actually eat.
I do give them a little bit of 'junk' food every now and again, a small can once every couple of weeks or so, just for a treat.

[Muffins]

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR RESPONDING TO MY POST . I really appreciate ALL of your wonderful input!!

Furkidlet's Mom:

you may have noticed that their canned chicken smells JUST like real, roasted chicken when first opened....like how it SHOULD smell! I would eat this stuff myself

When I read that earlier this morning, I smiled & laughed..... How right you are !! When I opened Ms. Lucy & Mr. Yoster's first can of Wellness Chicken on Saturday, I definitely noticed that it smelled quite delicious. (I was tempted to put a bit on a cracker for myself, truth be told) .

For good oral hygiene, a piece (or whole, depending on size of cat or dog) of raw chicken neck, once or twice/wk. is highly suggested by holistic vets.

Thank you for that tip. I just might have to try this, especially for Mr. Yoster.

Unfortunately, when our kids had dental surgery early last year, Lucy had about 6 teeth extracted - and, she has also lost quite a few teeth on her own !
About 10 days ago her lower right canine came out (it broke off at the gum line)....so, I know that we'll need to address this soon and have the root removed .
I think that her dental problems are most likely related to her diabetes, genetics AND eating DRY food!

Mr. Yoster has all of his teeth, with the exception of his upper two canines. All of his other teeth are in good condition - and, I would love for it to stay that way.
I got them some little "chew toys" -->> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod...82&N=2002+22759

Wysong is a good brand, too, but both of our vets (one a homeopath, the other one a homeopath, too but also holistic in other methodologies) both agreed that you have to be more careful with it, as it's been quite well known to cause crystals in cats. Why, no one knew a few years ago, and maybe they've changed something since then, but I'm not sure cuz we had a problem with it, so had to stop using it and I never went back to it.

Thanks for sharing that information with me. I know that this food is ONLY intended for intermittent feedings AND that it is recommended that the "Call of the Wild" supplement be added.
http://www.wysong.net/Merchant2/merchant.m...Product_Count=8

I surely don't want either of our babies to develop crystals....... In your opinion, do you think that I should return these?

Any pet supply store who knows their stuff will tell you, from best, better to worst, in order is: a raw food diet; best quality canned food; dry only if you must, or only as an occasional or very tiny treat.

The pet supply store out here is considered "a gourmet store ". When I was talking with the manager on Sunday, she swore up & down, (left & right) that cats SHOULD have dry food. Hmmm.....could it be because they have bags & bags of "gourmet dry food" and it's her job to sell it?? She wasn't interested in hearing what I had to say, and it appeared that she was getting nervous & extremely uncomfortable because the customers that were waiting in line seemed very interested in the topic of conversation.

And, there was a women there who was doing a Nutro product demonstration. http://www.nutroproducts.com/completecare.asp
I just checked the ingredients in their canned food and...... IT CONTAINS WHEAT GLUTEN !

Thank you SO MUCH for all of your very helpful information. I learn so much here at Lightning-Strike. I have learned a lot from you.

AlleysMama:

I have been doing a lot of research about this too, since I want to do the right thing when I get a kitten.

I think it's great that you are also doing research with regard to feline diets, so that you'll be ready & armed with the correct information when you decide to adopt a furkitten .
I believe that if I had known about how horrible dry food was/is, that Ms. Lucy would probably not have diabetes!

Whatever I learn, or if I see an article that has information worth sharing, I promise to add it here, on this thread. If you want to do the same, please do.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!

Moose Mom:

The kind our kids like the most is called 'Avoderm Natural' we also use the "Wellness' both smell so good!

Is this the **AvoDerm that your kids like?
http://www.breeders-choice.com/cat_product...odermcatcan.htm

Our pet supply store has this in stock, so I will go there and purchase some today. Thank you for letting me know about this brand!

We then give good whole meat. Usually organic ground turkey, raw. I've found most of my guys won't eat it raw, I don't know why. So I just warm it up in a skillet and then yum.

I'm not sure that our kids would eat raw either. I believe that you are correct in that if you start it when they're kittens, they would more than likely eat it (and enjoy!).

They do need veggies, we grow grass inside or get wheat grass for them and the food we feed does have some cooked veggies in it.

More great ideas --- THANK YOU SO MUCH ! What vegetables do you feed your kids? I truly appreciate everything that you have shared with me!

** Are there any supplements, vitamins, etc...., that any of you suggest that I add to their diets? I will be purchasing the AvoDerm today, and I see that Omega-6 & Omega-3 is in there, for healthy skin & fur. **

In closing, (for now), our household has been "kibble free" since Saturday afternoon (Feb 10th), and already there have been positive changes.

In my first post on this thread, I mentioned that Ms. Lucy has had chronic diarrhea ever since we adopted her. With the dry food out of the house, her stools were becoming more firm, which we were ecstatic about!
Well, this morning, at 5am she woke me up. When she does that, it usually means one of two things -- Either the litter needs to be cleaned out OR she wants food.
Both were true this morning.

(Knock wood here.......)
Her stool was much firmer than I have EVER seen it, for our girl. I was SOOOOOOOO PSYCHED!!
I know that the only people who would understand my excitement on this topic would be the wonderful moms & dads here at LS

Again, thank you all SO VERY MUCH for your time spent in answering my post!!

Peace & Love to you and yours,

Denise

** I just noticed that the AvoDerm canned food contains Oat Bran & Rice Flour .

[AlleysMama]

Just to add to this... I've been told that you should be careful what food your vet recommends as well, because they are often paid to sponsor certain brands and will recommend that brand first so they call sell it to you theirself!

The easiest way to tell what is better, just read the ingredients and make sure things are listed as "chicken" rather than "chicken by-product" etc.

Alley was very fussy and wouldn't eat any meat, raw or cooked and wouldn't eat any wet food but hopefully if you start them young, it will be easier to get them accustomed to it. She did eat wet food and treats her last week, but I think it was just because she was so sick and her body was destroying itself so she felt like she was starving and thirsty even though she had plenty to eat.

[Furkidlets' Mom]

Denise,

If you noticed, Lori DID taste the Wellness (actually, I did, too, in tiny amounts, as I always had bits of Nissa's food all over my fingers when I fed her!), and it IS tasty!

Okay, dental surgery does complicate things a bit, but maybe not completely. While Nissa also had some major dental work (we blamed one certain multi-vitamin that was high in Vit.C, which I LATER learned could have caused her tooth enamel to dissolve cuz it was a chewable vit. - they did a study with human children and chewable vit's...which caused enamel damage!), and so was fairly toothless on one side, including her front fang....though she didn't like the chicken neck pieces, she didn't have ANY major problem chewin' away on her caught mousies, bones and all. Took her a bit longer, is all. However, some cats may just not like the necks. So you can only give it a go and see what happens...but maybe AFTER the dental work is done, in case there are some pain issues right now. We also did brush their teeth pretty much every day, too, though, and I used a wonderful zinc product (only 1-2 drops/brushing) that helps heal gums and stuff ~ "Maxi-Guard Oral Cleansing Gel"....still use it myself, too, tho it's a vet. product! And yes, chew toys help, too. It's really mainly a matter of them having something hard yet soft enough to really give their gums a good workout, like they would have if in the wild eating rodents, etc. The bones help clean off their teeth, as do sinews, etc. and the action of gnawing well on something stimulates their gums, just like us brushing or using those rubber picks on our own gums.

How old are Lucy and Mr. Yoster?

I really don't know if dry food itself can cause diabetes any more than any other 'bad' food, but it's just the overall quality of diet that's most important. And I still agree with the better vets about dry food not being good for them.

Re: the Wysong....I can't really answer that, unless you could find out if they'd changed anything in their food in the last few years. Why don't you just call them directly and ask about this and see what they say? They might not admit (or heavens, even KNOW!) about their product causing crystals, but then again, they might. I'm not familiar with the supplement they suggest, as it wasn't around when I first used their food, so can't comment on that...but I imagine it's designed to balance what might be a high protein content in their meat-only food. I do know that our one vet told me I'd have to add some veggies and supplements to it if we used it, but how much was a guessing game, so I didn't like that, either. Too much worry!

Everyone has their own opinion (even if they don't know a thing about the whole issue! ) about dry, but I trust my Dr. Hamilton's studied viewpoints and many other vets and other researchers have agreed overall. If you would like to read his fairly comprehensive discussion on diet, it's in his book. There are also a whole whack of books out there now that discuss raw food diets and other 'compromises' if raw food isn't a 'go' with your kids. I have to say though, that Nissa and Sabin were already about 8 or older when I first introduced homemade raw food to them, and they still ate it. And a note of caution: ALWAYS start dietary changes GRADUALLY, esp. important with cats, as their stomachs are often highly sensitive to sudden shifts in food. I always did as told, starting with no more than 1/4 of the new food in a plate of the old food and working up over about 5-7 days. Some people have had to mix a bit of the raw food diets into the regular canned food, and some have to leave it at that, while others find over time they can increase the raw diet to 100% using this method. Our kids balked after 50-60% and both preferred it NOT to be mixed together. At times, they also preferred the raw to be cooked slightly. They also suggest warming ANY food first to at least room-temp, over hot water on the stove, and NOT in a microwave if you can help it (which only adds radiation, which they've proven changes the blood components in people...not in a good way!) Oh, and get it out of those metal cans and into a glass container as soon as opened, too. There's something in the lining they now use (to protect against the heavy metal poisoning from the cans themselves) that ALSO is proving to be harmful to animals.

Re: the wheat gluten, oat bran, rice flour - while wheat is certainly one of the most common allergens in both people and animals, it's also considered a 'cooling' food in the body by TCM pract*itioners/vets (Chinese Medicine) and so sometimes can actually do some good, depending on the condition (but this is a lengthy, complicated subject). Oat bran, on the other hand, is mainly for fibre and many folks (including the celebrated Anitra Frazier) use it, or wheat bran, combined with a bit of butter or a good and safe oil, as a daily laxative...not that you need this right now! Brown rice flour isn't as bad as white rice flour, but generally speaking ANY kind of flour, versus the whole grain from whence it came, is not a good idea, as flour is gummier in the body (and out!), though the whole grain ones aren't really like that. But if you're trying to avoid grains altogether....

What veggies? For cats, if they will eat any that are either raw/uncooked, wonderful! But if not, either lightly or, if you have to, heavily steam them (in tiny pieces, or even mashing them or pureeing them after cooked). This seems to make them more palatable and more easily digested. (think of the grains and greens in a rodent's or bird's stomach, often being only partially digested before the cat eats the them) Common ones that many cats will eat are things like: broccoli, carrots, raw sprouts (NOT bean sprouts, though) if not 'spicy' like from radishes, etc., lentils, various squashes, cauliflower, yams or sweet pot's, zuchini, asparagus, peas, pumpkin....almost anything we might eat. Each cat to his/her own preferences, though. And pumpkin can have a laxative effect, as can beets. Some cats even like certain fruits, like strawberries. And of course, wash them WELL even if organic, first!! (I used a combo. of a bit of vinegar, liquid soap and grapefruit seed extract - just a few drops! - in the wash water, then a good rinse. Do NOT use those antibacterial soaps!)

As for supplements.....how long do you HAVE to read??? Good basic ones are Vit.'s C, multi-B's, E, A/D once/wk., digestive enzymes (for cats, or a really high-quality one for humans), Co-Q 10, extra EFA's (your Omega 3's and 6's) from various sources like wild salmon and primrose or others in the proper ratios for cats specifically (our human ratios are different)....really, a whole host of them, depending on need and condition. Again, I can't stress enough....it's best to read a qualified person's book, like Anitra's or Dr. Hamilton's, as dose is dependant on weight and conditions/cat. AND, it depends on which ones they'll AGREE to having put in their food!! I had to try several, changing methods over time, to get some of these into Nissa...cuz she kept changing her MIND over how I should do it! I myself have several books that cover topics such as this, and constantly referred to them as things changed, then ran any new thoughts past our 2 vets, or just Dr. Hamilton. He helped me figure out ratios and amounts very often, as things changed and we had to adjust stuff. I wish I knew more about diabetes itself, but I do know it's covered in Anitra's book. She has a specific homemade diet for this (as well as most other conditions), plus supplements and other aids. I do know that diabetic as well as kidney cats crave warmth and a "snug retreat" as Anitra says, to cushion them against stress and chilliness. And I believe even Anitra's diets use grain.

But also, if you think about it, cats eating in the wild will always get SOME grain, seeds, veggies, etc.....just think about what their PREY eats....but it's in smaller proportions to the meat. And on the other hand, many diets are also humanely trying to compensate for the killing of OTHER animals in order for us to feed our carnivores. So to my mind, as long as they aren't showing digestive complaints from eating grains, it's a trade-off. There are many sources of protein in the world, not just from meat...for example, quinoa is an ancient grain that's VERY high in protein, as are legumes and lentils, pound for pound and these are the some of the main sources of protein whereby vegetarians get their protein. (Nissa really actually loved her oats!) Some of these are very easily digested, too. So it's a complicated issue. What I'VE been wondering about that hasn't happened (apologies in advance to Michelle and all the rodents of the world!!!) is why isn't there a more natural diet made from rodents....just like cats would be eating on their own if we hadn't mucked with the natural order of things? But there's no easy answer to any of this.

Dr. Hamilton says Ovaban (megestrol acetate) should never be used (prescribed for skin conditions) is highly dangerous and can CAUSE diabetes and breast cancer in cats, among other problems. He also mentions that diabetic cats should be on chromium, and has an entire discussion about that (what form, dose, etc.) but also says that if you are injecting insulin, they must be monitored carefully as chromium usually reduces the insulin dosage requirement. Green beans are good for diabetic cats, as are dandelion, blueberry (in some canned foods, too) and ginseng, and garlic once in awhile, though it may incite anemia if used regularly. So....there's LOTS to still learn!

Paula is right, too - often vets are paid to promote certain brands of food and other products, so be discerning. If someone can't answer any questions you have about something, ask if they can find out, or find out more yourself...but be wary. They should know SOMETHING about the product, or tell you where you can find out more.

But your commitment to your kids is WONDERFUL and I applaud you for taking some proactive steps on their behalf!! And yes, I AM excited for you and for the improvements you've already seen! It's great when that happens. Keep us posted! And if YOU learn something none of us know.....let US know, too.

[AlleysMama]

Just wanted to add something regarding the vegetables. You probably already know this but it is new information to me! I can't find the link right now that lists the other things, but I know that Onions are poisonous to cats if they eat too many of them so be careful if you decide to make your own food with vegetables. I think garlic is also bad for them. I'll try to find the website that listed these things.


ok, found a site that lists some of the things and how they can hurt them. I had a better one before though so will post it if I find it again.

http://www.petalia.com.au/templates/storyt...fm?story_no=257

[Furkidlets' Mom]

Paula,

You're right on about onions (and many other things from the allium family) and chocolate, that's for sure. The garlic, though, just as they say in that article, would have to be eaten in large amounts (or regularly) to be a problem. Anitra Frazier has been using garlic as a preventive and treatment for cats for many years (and it's also one of those preventives for fleas and other bugs), although it's in very small amounts, say up to 1/4 tsp. at a time. It's also used in many natural foods and treats for cats (and dogs). And some cats love it, others won't go near it. It's also not a good supplement choice depending on the illness...eg, liver problems don't go well with garlic, as it's too 'hot' in the body and liver conditions are considered 'hot', according to TCM, and the same goes for certain conditions that affect the head area. Again, another good reason to buy some comprehensive books to check and cross-check as needed.

I'm glad you've posted this link, though (and are looking for the other one) as yes, there are some things that we can eat that our kids can't, or shouldn't (same for doggies). (and just like some common house and yard plants that can kill them!) And as for anything, one individual might have a sensitivity or even allergy to any given food, even one that's considered safe, or normally good for most, so one always has to watch and observe after introducing something new.

Sometimes I just forget parts of everything I know, as it's become so extensive after all these years, so thanks for this great reminder and caution for others! (and good to know there are more and more of us reading and becoming aware!) There were a few veggies that I felt I shouldn't give Nissa anymore, later in her disease, or lesser amounts of, just because of contraindications when certain things changed, like the avocados she loved and were so good for adding fat to her diet, but became a problem once her other issues changed. Sometimes I felt like I needed a degree in EVERYTHING all at once! And truth be told, this is one of those things I DON'T miss....having to consider and worry about so much all the time....

Just found this link on poisonous things for cats, so although it's not just about food, thought I'd post it here as well:
Poisonous Substances for Cats

ATTN, LORI - take a look at the list of plants, including baby's breath! ACK!

[Moose Mom]

Denise

First I'm so happy to hear that Ms. Lucy is doing better! Woo hoo and keep up the good work girl. You are very welcome for any help, I just want all cats to be healthy and happy. It makes me very happy to help kitties anywhere, and the people who are trying so hard to do it right.

I'm not sure it's just dry food that is causing so much diabetes in our cats, but it is the food, of that I'm sure. Cancer too. Actually you may be surprised at how much your kids like raw meat, some seem to be starving for it.

Is this the **AvoDerm that your kids like?

Yes that's the brand and the website we use. They have one with people grade tuna and crab that is so good. Our kids seem to like the gravy in it best. We can get it at our natural pet food store most times, but sometimes they get out of stock. So we order a case of tuna and a case of chicken and keep it in our pantry.

The vegies my kids will eat always seem to come in a can too. I just go with whatever food they will eat that has some vegies in it, along with grass and wheatgrass. The wheatgrass is easy to get from the natural food store, they always have some out and ready for the people who like to juice their own.

Yeah I ate a bit, just a taste. But I don't do anything or feed anything to my guys I don't try first. Except the raw meat, they can handle it, I don't think my body could. But they get the same good ground turkey we eat, we just don't eat it raw. So try a bit on a cracker, what could it hurt? Or more like me, just stick my finger in and give it a taste, if it's yucky I won't feed it to them.

My Moose was so picky. There were times he would refuse the turkey we were trying to feed him. We ate it but he wouldn't. He knew what was good.

Love

[AlleysMama]

FK's mom

Thats a great site that lists all the plants and things that are toxic to cats. I never have houseplants because I have somewhat of a "black thumb" lol, but its good to know.
My mom had a little siames kitty several years ago who was about 6 months old when she died. Her name was Delilah and they don't know what happened except that suddenly she started having some kind of seizures and vomiting green foam, and died very quickly, before they could even grab car keys to get her to the vet. They didn't take her in for autopsy or anything but in just describing what happend to the vet over the phone he said it sounded like she was definitely poisoned, likely from a plant or possibly a chemical she found outside but they never discovered what it was. My mom has LOTS of plants inside so it was probably one of those.
I know that right now, we keep mouse poison out in the apartment and that is already on my list of things to get rid of when I can get my kitty.

I still can't find the original site I had before that did a good job of listing the toxic foods and reasons, but here is another list.

Apple seeds
Apricot seeds/pits
Avodaco fruit/pit
Cherry (the whole thing)
Eggplant (the greens)
Elderberry
Mushrooms
Onion
Potato
Rhubarb (leaf)
Tobacco
Tomato (greens)

[Muffins]

Hi Everyone!

WOW......so many new replies... Please, I really want to THANK ALL OF YOU for every single bit of your input to this thread. And, I sincerely hope that you will forgive me if I happen to forget to respond to some parts of your replies. It is not intentional.

Truth be told, I have been feeling a bit overwhelmed ever since Ms. Lucy was ill at the end of January. I have been reading articles, looking into different websites: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/, http://www.gorbzilla.com/hodgkins.htm, http://www.catinfo.org/, http://catnutrition.org/, etc...., and desperately trying to do "the right thing".

We LOVE our kids more than anything in this world. And, here I was feeding them all of this dry food which wasn't good for them. But......until now, I didn't know that! So, I am VERY, VERY GRATEFUL to all of you who are sharing your knowledge with me.
Blessings to all of you.

AlleysMama:

Just to add to this... I've been told that you should be careful what food your vet recommends as well, because they are often paid to sponsor certain brands and will recommend that brand first so they call sell it to you theirself!

At our vet's office, they DO have two different brands of "prescription food". I think one is Hill's - I'm not sure of the other one.
We had tried Ms. Lucy on the "diabetes formula" (both canned & dry) on two different occasions, AND....on both formulas, she vomited. They just didn't agree with her.
That information (I know) is do%%ented right on her chart.

Well today, our vet's office called because we did not show up on Monday AM for a blood glucose test.
I explained to the tech that I did speak with our vet on the 9th of February, and because our girl was vomiting and having very watery diarrhea, we kept her NPO, but did give her water.
Because she was not feeling well and not eating, I didn't give her any insulin on Saturday, the 10th, and gave her 1/2 dose on Sunday.
Our vet knew that we weren't coming in on Monday, because her glucose level wouldn't be a "true" reading.

The technician did ask me how she was doing, so I went on to say that ALL of the dry food has been GONE since Saturday, the 10th. I explained (as well as I could) what I've learned about dry food - and, I told her what canned foods we were feeding both kids, along with the Wysong supplement.

She asked if I wanted to speak with our vet, and I did. I informed him of our dietary changes, and I feel he sounded a bit uneasy about not having dry food. It was interesting, he did ask if we wanted to TRY the "prescription diets" that they sell in their office.......
I said no, that we've tried both of them in the past and they didn't work out.

FK's Mom I know you asked how old our kids were. We adopted Ms. Lucy and Mr. Yoster in March, 2004. When we went to this shelter, they had a barn, where the kittens were kept, and in another area, they had 3 big rooms that housed all of the "older" kitties.
We did not plan on adopting kittens because, (of course), they are adorable, and they're the ones that get chosen first.

We only needed to go into one room to find our precious kids. I was drawn to this beautiful tortie and when I went over to her, she was in my face and purring and licking. YEP, she was coming home with us.
My husband was drawn to Yoda, (now Yoster, Mr. Man, Oda, Big Boy, etc... ), who was sitting in a little perch right above Lucy.

Both of their birthdates were unknown. They had been abused & were dropped off at the shelter along with 3 other furcats.
They had Mr. Yoster's age as 10 years & Ms. Lucy as 9 years old.
Now, they're 3 years older -- They just don't seem "that old".
It's always fun to see their "inner kitten" come out !

(.... all of that information, and you just wanted to know their age .... Sorry).

"Maxi-Guard Oral Cleansing Gel"

I'll definitely make a note of that. Thanks!

I sent off an e-mail to the Wysong company today to ask them about their product causing crystals. I'll be interested to hear what they say.

FK's Mom: You mentioned "Dr. Donald Hamilton". Is this him/his book? http://www.homeopathic.com/Merchant2/merch...ct_Code=HAM-HOM

Is this the "Anitra Frazier" you mentioned? http://www.paraview.com/frazier/

If these are the two books that you suggest, I will order them. Thank you for telling me about them.

Oh, and get it out of those metal cans and into a glass container as soon as opened, too. There's something in the lining they now use (to protect against the heavy metal poisoning from the cans themselves) that ALSO is proving to be harmful to animals.

Yes, I make sure to do that. I had heard that the substance that is used to make the can "a pop top/suction, etc....", has been known to cause dental problems. It's probably true.

He also mentions that diabetic cats should be on chromium, and has an entire discussion about that (what form, dose, etc.) but also says that if you are injecting insulin, they must be monitored carefully as chromium usually reduces the insulin dosage requirement. Green beans are good for diabetic cats, as are dandelion, blueberry (in some canned foods, too) and ginseng, and garlic once in awhile, though it may incite anemia if used regularly. So....there's LOTS to still learn!

I definitely will mention these things to our vet.

You know, I wonder if what's going through my head is just "wishful thinking".
WHEN we had dry food in our house, I was guilty of "free-feeding". My reason for that was, "what if we're not here, and Lucy's sugar gets low???"
So, that's why dry food was always available. And, she was extremely addicted to it.

I am thinking that, if she is not eating dry food anymore, (not even one little kibble), that her blood glucose levels will become much lower than they once were. Of course, this is what I am hoping for.

Again, it is more than AMAZING that her diarrhea is GONE, (I am knocking on wood), as well as the flatulence that she had!! I could only imagine how awful she must have been feeling all of the time.

I will share with all of you that, when I awoke today, I cleaned out their litter AND, there was NO DIARRHEA. She had had another firm stool !

AlleysMama: THANK YOU for posting this site: http://www.petalia.com.au/templates/storyt...fm?story_no=257


And, FK's Mom: THANKS for posting this site:
http://mainecoonrescue.com/poison.html

I will look through both of these tonight!

MooseMom:

The vegies my kids will eat always seem to come in a can too. I just go with whatever food they will eat that has some vegies in it, along with grass and wheatgrass. The wheatgrass is easy to get from the natural food store, they always have some out and ready for the people who like to juice their own.

I just read an article about "wheatgrass". I had no idea that this was good for our furkids! We have a juicer, too. Can the "grasses" be just chopped/minced up really small, and be added to their canned food?

Two things that Ms. Lucy REALLY LOVES is, BUTTER & CREAM CHEESE. When she knows I'm toasting a bagel, she will wait because she knows that cream cheese or butter is coming next.
And, she can hear me opening a stick of butter.

I HAVE given her the teeniest amount - infinitesimal - probably once/week, when I happen to be having a bagel.
There is something about these two foods that just makes her eyes huge - her pupils dilate. It's like she's a crazed addict .
Does anyone know if these foods are harmful to felines?

AlleysMama: Thank you for this list of toxic foods. We don't have any houseplants either - no greenthumb over here either !
I'm sorry to hear about your mom's kitty Delilah. Our precious furkids are soooo curious, they want to get into everything.

Well everyone, I'm going to close for now. I can't believe how long it takes me to write a post. I think I started this around 1:30pm, and it's now 5:45pm.

Really, THANK YOU ALL SO VERY, VERY MUCH, AGAIN! My husband and I (and of course, our sweet kids) are very grateful to you all.
Our precious babies depend on us to care for them as best we can, and we are desperately trying to do our best.
You guys are the best .

Peace & Love to you and yours,

Denise, Ben, Ms. Lucy and Mr. Yoster xo

[Furkidlets' Mom]

Denise,

Okay, so they're both older..... (yes, I laughed at your comment) But it's still nice to know how you came to adopt them! And Nissa kept her kitten-button ways about her right up until a bit less than her last year in life here, so that goes to show you what good care can do for them (and us), even if one doesn't start until later!

Please don't feel guilty for what you didn't know when you just didn't know! You're probably still way ahead of the pack NOW, and that's what counts the most. (I hope you've also glanced at the thread here about vaccinating)

And yes, that's my Dr. Don all right! (how I LOVE that man! He's SOOOO wise! ) I also just discovered that he's even noted in Wikipedia under 'veterinary homeopathy'! He's very celebrated and I feel very lucky to have been able to work with him for the last few years of Nissa's life. And yes, that's the Anitra I referred to. I have her "The All Natural Cat" book. I also have all the other books listed underneath Dr. Don's book (except for the one on dogs).....all excellent books as well, especially Jeffrey M. Masson's "When Elephants Weep", though it's not a health book, but a must for anyone who cares about the WHOLE animal/bird, etc. kingdom. (I have darn near every page turned down as reference!)

As a general comment, I doubt it's possible to do absolutely everything right, but as long as you're making positive changes in whatever areas you're able to, it's still better than sitting around and taking the easy way out, doing nothing, so try not to fret TOO much....like I've been known to do!! You're doing GREAT so far! From your vet's reaction, it sounds like he's just woefully un and misinformed, like many of them....just like most human docs are, with the one-page dissertation they get on human nutrition.

Butter, from what I've been told, is even less harmful to cats than it is to us, but even better is the organic ghee recipe in Don's book....which is also EXCELLENT for the kidneys. (I'd make a batch from a half-pound of unsalted, organic butter, cut it up in small squares, then store them in a jar in the freezer) Cats don't normally have high cholesterol problems, unless they've got bad liver problems, so can handle saturated fats much better than we do. And small amounts likely won't hurt anything. Dr. Don suggested Nissa get a bit every day if possible, but then her problem was the opposite, with dry stool...and I used the ghee unless she wanted plain, salted butter instead. The cream cheese probably won't really harm anything, either, although it's about as undesirable as any processed food. But hey....everyone needs a small treat once in awhile, eh? (and who could resist those big pupils!!?) The small amounts of salt that they'd get from tiny smidgeons of these probably aren't very high, either...unless salt intake is contraindicated because of disease.

For grass, wheat OR oatgrass could be chopped up, but as with anything, it depends on the individual as to whether they'll agree to this being put in their food. Do you not think they'd like to just munch on it by themselves? If you grow it yourself, firstly, make sure the seeds, or finished product, are guaranteed free of chemicals, fertilizers and pesticides, and be sure to use a heavy and low pot, so they can both reach it and not tip it over when they rip/nip off the tips....unless you LIKE cleaning up dirt off the floor! I tried giving Nissa the actual juice once....too strong a flavour for her...drank it myself. She also preferred wheatgrass to oatgrass, though some pet product seeds are a mix. She also really liked (in her food) various sprouting seeds I'd buy, like red clover sprouts, minced up finely - red clover is great for the immune system and for fighting cancer....and sprouting is easy as pie. ( WAY easier than making pie, if you ask ME!)

I really hope you do order those books....you'll learn an awful lot about how to help your kidlets in so many ways....of course, w/o my docs also working with me, I would have gone crazy what with all of Nissa's differing complaints! Don's 'const*itutional' remedying really made a world of a difference....and he had a really soft phone-shoulder to lean on innumerable times! But if you go somewhere armed with all that information, you'll probably get a lot farther, too. I know it helped me when I'd have to deal with a new doc/specialist and I actually knew something I could demonstrate by asking more-informed questions and putting forth REASONING in my arguments...and most especially in the living proof of Nissa's good condition (for all her ailments) right before their eyes! They ALL said we'd very obviously been doing things that had helped her immeasurably and so were less prone to push us around for ego's sake. I'll never regret all the work I put into learning, and hope to never stop learning, either, even if I don't have any kidlets.

[Moose Mom]

Denise


While you could mince wheatgrass up and put it in their food, mine LOVE to eat it. I just buy the flat and put it on the floor. Dairy, flying in the face of dairy farmers everywhere, is really only good for cows. It can cause problems for people and really cause diarrhea in cats. A tiny bit as a treat is okay, but a lot can be a real problem. My Autumn likes butter too, I put my finger in the hot butter on toast and then let her lick a little off. Margarine is okay, and my cats like it as much anyway, it's oils not dairy.

Love

[Kim R.]

WOW! When I read this thread, I was both shocked and angry! Shocked because I have always tried to do the very best for my furkids and I now find out I'm not even close in the nutritional category, and angry because the animal medical world doesn't address this issue! Even in all the years I worked as a vet tech I never heard anything about this!! I have fed all of my animals (yes, even squeaky the barn kitty!) Eukanuba (dry)for as long as it has been in production because it has been glorified as the best diet out there....obviously not! It angers me that I have been paying such high dollar prices for that particular food all this time thinking "it's worth it because I want them to have the very best" when I have only been hurting my furkids instead<sigh>. Well, I know I can't undo the past, but I can change the future. I have been trying to research how to feed this 'raw diet' and I feel so overwhelmed. Different sites have different suggestions for ingredients and ratios and that scares me. How will I know that my kitty is getting the right balance of vitamin/minerals? It's not like I can consult the vet about it since they don't support it . The material I have read about the subject certainly makes sense (it almost makes me feel like a horses #@& because it is really common sense if you think about the origin of the cat ), and I really want to give it a try with my guys. Can anyone who has been feeding this diet with good results help me out with more 'idiot proof' information on ingredients/ratios!? I went to the wysong website thinking that a prepackaged diet would be much more convenient, and not that my kids aren't worth it, but that food is soo expensive it's rediculous and it still seems to have alot of ingredients in it that aren't recommended, so I guess homemade is the way to go! Any suggestions on how to make it easier?

[Furkidlets' Mom]

Kim,

Like most people, you just didn't know. When one has a holistic vet, rather than a strictly allopathic one, you are MADE aware of the many things that are only now beginning to take more of a toe-hold in the general public's mind. Me, I've been aware of these things since about 1994, so it's long lost the element of surprise.

Allopathic docs, both human and animal, were never getting any real education in nutrition. Our local holistic vet used to wryly tell me about the 1/2-1 hour class they taught up-and-coming vets , often sponsored by the 'leading', meaning those with the most $$$, petfood co.'s.

Now there are quite a number of raw food diets out there and I know how confusing the different types can be, even if one already knows some of what to look for....so you have my sympathy! While I myself used Dr. Richard Pitcairn's homemade diet for the raw food portion (and other more $$ but best quality canned foods...."You get what you pay for", and "You are what you eat" are as true for this as for our stuff!), even though it's pretty high in grain content, it was developed by him and his wife, a nutritionist, and comes with pretty complete instructions on how to make the supplements that go into it as well (and what sources are safer). And of course, Dr. Pitcairn himself doesn't have terribly unhealthy animals, so it sort of speaks for itself! I would also use the grains and veggies therapeutically, as indicated by TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine), for differing or acute conditions, ie. some foods are warming, cooling or neutral in the body, and different conditions require different 'thermal'-inducing foods to aid in healing. So I liked it for that added flexibility.

It used to take us most of a whole day to make the yearly supply for two (using organic meats, grains and anything else we could buy organically), then we'd freeze it in tiny portions on trays and pop the portions in bags for the entire year. Now, there are many who don't agree entirely with his particular diet (he was also trying to leave a smaller 'footprint' on the world with his diet...hence the higher whole grain content) and even I'd have to research, again, all the various ones around if I ever needed to. However, one thing can be said for almost all of the raw food diets:

They're almost all bound to be better and healthier all-around for our kidlets than the usual schlock is, especially if one uses organic supplies. And the same could be said for the best quality canned foods, like Wellness brand. So even if you simply upgraded to a good canned brand while you were finishing your research on raw food, your kids would be starting to get healthier while you looked around for the 'ultimate' diet plan. If it helps ease your mind any, I even more recently discovered a vegetarian diet plan for cats....hold on, before you protest....that has served well for several generations of cats now, which uses protein sources other than meats (so some dairy; high-protein grains; legumes, etc.) and which is 'producing' incredibly healthy animals in its 'wake'. So, if even THIS can work, even if you don't believe a carnivore could possibly survive, much less thrive, on what would be considered an UNnatural, though admittedly healthy foods diet for them.....My point is still that ANY change in the right direction still has some benefits, and much fewer pitfalls than the garbage that's been stuffed into our kidlets in the last few decades has.

There are also a number of good, informative books out there now that are all about pet's diets, so may be a good starting point, too. One classic is "Food Pets Die For", from an author (forget her name now) who was a ground-breaker in this new movement towards improving food for animals. I believe even she has a few raw food recipes in her book. (I've not read it, though, so can't comment on it specifically)

I've also just posted a link in this section that might help you find someone who knows more about the various diets out there. here I believe there's a couple of holistic vets in your State as well (Dwayne Hubbard, and Susan G. Wynn), who might be of some help. You can always do phone appt's with MANY of them just to discuss your concerns....money well spent, if you ask me!

I wish I knew more, in detail, about all the newer ones available now, but I had no pressing need to change what we'd been doing for years, so didn't make a concerted effort to find out all about all of them (just sort of kept abreast of some), as ours was working for us just fine. I do know there was one that simply supplied the nutrients/supplements (and other additional but optional products if you liked), while you added the meat and veggies (no grains), and their supplements seemed quite good to me (from talking about many different ones with our 2 vets AND from already knowing which ones didn't sit as well with Nissa, or were contraindicated for her particular concerns) but I never bookmarked the site, as we didn't really need to change anything. It MIGHT have been the BARF diet (yah, great name, I know), but I'm not sure. And don't forget, there are likely more than just one that will provide MUCH more in the way of nutritional support, even if there's no one perfect plan.

The other factor you have to resign yourself to is that some individuals will simply prefer the taste and texture of one diet over another, and so many people have to experiment and see which one suits their kidlets best. So it's often a longer-term project than just throwing something new their way and leaving it at that. It requires an investment of time, love and effort.....as well as the usual slow introduction of a new food into anyone's (especially cat's) diet. And for your barn cat, you'd have to be prepared to leave raw food out no longer than 45 mins. at a time, lest it spoil. So I would even suggest you start with a good canned food first anyway, in case you have to also slowly introduce a raw food into the canned...since mixing raw or canned food into DRY food doesn't usually work as well, if at all. I believe there are also some website forums for people who are feeding/treating their animals holistically, where you can get answers to many questions from those who've "been there...done that" already. I had one bookmarked, but erased it after Nissa left, as it was too painful to keep.

There also ARE some raw food diets that are now available through some vets and better pet food supply stores (in their freezers), but you may have to drive a ways to find those. Nissa always liked those different ones maybe up to 3 times....then went right back to preferring her Pitcairn food.

It's not just the "origin" of the cat here....they've never been technically 'domesticated', so nothing has changed by way of their basic requirements. Cats are still considered "wild", even though purebreds (and any further mixed-breeds from them) have been subjected to more and more unhealthy human manipulations. Their basic physiology remains the same, only compromised.

Hope some of this helps you in your search. Just keep telling yourself..."It's a learning curve....it's a learning curve..." but one well worth pursuing.

[Kim R.]

Thanks once again, FK's mom, for taking the time to hold my hand through this . I am really so discouraged tonight about all this. I decided to call some vets today (just out of curiosity) and their advice also seemed to make perfect sense to me , so now I'm stuck on what to do. The two that took the time to really get into the discussion with me both had very similiar points. They didn't knock the diet in itself (surprisingly), but they definitely had their concerns about it. One of them (my current personal vet) said he had actually attended 2 different seminars on the topic since he had had some clients beginning to question him about it and he still had his concerns about it. His greatest concern, as is mine, is the lay person acting as a nutririonist. He said that even the people giving the seminar admitted that there had been problems with people under/over supplementing and subst*ituting things that made the food unbalanced....he basically said it had to be very acurate with ingredients and the amounts used to be a truly beneficial diet. He then gave his opinion that he personally just didn't see enough evidence at this point to think that it was the best choice. He told me about how pets live so much longer these days since balanced commercial diets became available. He said he sees cats on a daily basis now that are near 20, or even older, and they are all fed (most a high quality)commercial diet. He said that Eukanuba (which he doesn't sell so had nothing to gain from this) was the best commercial diet out there (the first few ingredients are chicken broth, chicken, chicken liver, beef liver) which he said is as good as it gets for commercial food (he also feeds it to his own animals). He said the proof is in the pudding and if it isn't broke don't fix it! It did make me think...Sasha ate nothing but Eukanuba her whole life, and she lived 16 healthy years! Way longer than most large breed dogs. And my indoor cat has eaten it since kittenhood and he just exudes good health! People always comment on how 'healthy and shiny' he is. My parents cat is nearing 20 and she too has been on eukanuba for a majority of those years (since my parents rescued her 15+ years ago) and she has never had a single illness in all those years...she is healthy as a horse, so you see my dilemma <sigh>. My husband thinks I'm crazy for 'experimenting' with something as important as this...but that is just the thing to me...it is soo important and I just want to do the right thing. I guess the vet hit the nail on the head when he said it was just something that each individual pet owner had to decide on for themselves by their own experiences....there just was no black and white proof to say one is better than the other and he feels that the risks outweigh the benefits at this point<sigh again>...I guess I just need to keep reading and decide from there....

[Furkidlets' Mom]

Kim,

Well, since I've been reading and re-educating myself for so long already, all I can say is that these particular vets seem to have their data backwards. Most holistic vets who've been practising for 20-30 years (some, longer) have a completely opposite view of what's happened to animals since the introduction of commercial diets. Plus, without exception, every vet I've ever had contact with (quite a few, with one thing or another) has said that most cats, anyway (never asked about dogs), do NOT live that long anymore (take this board as a 'for instance'), nor are they anywhere near as healthy at a given age as they used to be, nor even as Nissa was...despite her problems. And the sanctioned standards for feeding and nutritional requirements are grossly underrated, just as many vitamin and mineral standards for humans have been for many years. In essence, they don't even come close to what a body truly requires for optimal nutrition and health. These are the usual standards that the huge commercial firms follow. At further issue is the quality of their ingredients, most of which are not even considered acceptable for human consumption. I would not feed any kidlet of mine anything I wouldn't feel safe eating as well.

And the story doesn't end there, either. Iams produces Eukanuba, and Iams has been blasted (and boycotted) recently for conducting horrid animal tests and imposing cruelty on cats, dogs and other creatures. Buying their products helps fund and support that cruelty. Here's just one link of many on Iams cruel practises.

Iam's cruelty

ALL of the articles there are important to read. Iams is also owned by Proctor and Gamble, one of the worst torturers of animals for product testing. If for no other reason that this, I would never buy their products. They also use dead, diseased and contaminated meat in their pet food. (that book I mentioned before mentions all of this kind of stuff and more, regarding most commercial pet foods) So how "balanced' could a diet of such ingredients be?

So, to me, there are also important ethical factors to consider in the whole dietary debate. I could not not think about just HOW these companies conduct their research and WHO they might harm in the process...just to make a buck. Iams' animals often end up dead and what that says about a company is equally important to me.

One vet we used to have personally visited the research facility for Hill's. She was impressed. When I asked a few pointed questions and got answers to them, I was not! And their facility/environment was nowhere near as barbaric as Iams is.

Perhaps you also might want to speak to an equal number of holistic vets, too, to get their viewpoints as well, and to be fair in your assessments. There are always a few exceptions to any rule, but here we're talking about the majority of animals nowadays, and from what I've learned, combined with good common sense, over-processed food (and especially lower quality ingredients) is not the optimal way to go. I can just imagine what kind of shape I'd be in myself, had I eaten nothing but chips (and canned goods) my entire life.

[Muffins]

Hi Everyone!

I want to thank all of you for contributing to this very important thread. Since there is SOOOO much information here, I am going to print it all out. I want to REALLY read & understand everyone's input here. It is so very, very important to me.

At 46, my brain won't let me read your posts once, and then retain it. I had a stroke at age 34, and was left with 7 - 10 months of left sided weakness, and developed seizures, (which I haven't had since '95!! ). Not sure if this has anything to do with my ability to "retain information"....but, it's something I need to look into.

With regard to raw diets for felines, please check out Dr. Lisa Pierson's sites, http://www.catinfo.org/
and also http://www.felinespride.com/home/home.aspx.

I just received a package of raw chicken for our kids. I will give some to them tonight, and will let everyone know how they like it.

We purchased a "One Touch Ultra" so that we can start home testing Ms. Lucy. Can I be honest and say I'm VERY SCARED of pricking her ear.......but, I know it's necessary for me to do since I have taken her off of dry food. I belong to the feline diabetes sites, and am learning a lot.

Peace & Love to you all,

Denise